(R5) The Weight Debate (part 2)
Many thanks to Scott Church for his kind permission to feature the following aptly named and beautiful image. Scott has a new photo blog, which you can view here.

The Complex and the Simple, by Scott Church
Would you photograph this model?
Now of course each of us will have a different, very subjective answer to this question, depending on how we personally feel about shooting larger models. Is she "plus-size" or is she "fat?" Does the language really matter? Yes, I did use the “f” word, deliberately. I can feel you all flinching already.
Size-ism and weight bias rules Western culture. It is the reason that many women (and men) have eating disorders. I frequent a lot of nutrition forums, and the bitchiness between the women is eye-watering. You really wouldn’t believe how nasty people can be about size. In the fashion industry too, thin is equated with perfection. A typical example is Carine Roitfeld (editor of French Vogue) who believes that models can never be too skinny, that only thin is beautiful. The media and entertainment industry’s obsession with rake-thin clothes horses and the Barbie-doll look has done a huge amount of harm to woman-kind in general. It has wrecked our self-esteem, and racked us with self doubt.
Weight bias is even virulent amongst the less educated members of the photographic community. One of the main reasons I left the MM forums was because of the constant vicious attacks on models about weight. One of the worst things a photographer can EVER say to a model is “you’re fat.” And yes, I have seen it happen too many times to count. How rude, how ignorant, but it still happens all of the time. We all know it is wrong, unjust, and I bet all of you reading this agree with me. So, if this is the case, why does seem that the vast majority of nude photographers only photograph thinner women? And by "thinner," I mean size 14 (size 16 in US speak) or under. I’ve no idea if it’s because they can’t find plus size models, or because their personal taste in women is for thinner body-shapes, or simply because thin women are more socially acceptable and sell more images.
I know of at least one photographer who never ever photographs over a US size 4 (UK size 8). He makes no apologies for this, and he’ll freely admit that he just doesn’t find anyone over that size attractive enough to photograph. He subscribes to the “thin is beautiful” regime, and to his credit, he does photograph these svelte ladies extremely well. Of course he could photograph larger women and make them look stunning too, but he doesn’t want to. (He’s a charming chap, BTW.)
Rich, on the other hand, is a personality junkie. He genuinely likes all different body shapes and sizes, and he considers all women potentially good photographic subjects providing they are prepared to “emote” to the camera. In some respects, this is a bad thing as it’s easy to find models who will pose nude, but incredibly difficult to discover models who can express passion in front of the lens.
And then there’s the problem of actually finding a plus-plus size model who will pose nude for us (I mean size 20 or above.) Extensive casting calls on my part have met with abject failure. Unlike the awesomely talented US model Shyly, most larger models in the UK are deeply ashamed to be photographed naked. Although they love art and modelling, they confess to hating their natural bodies, so no nude modelling under any circumstances, which I find immensely sad, albeit predictable. In my teens I was a size 20 (US size 22) and there’s no doubt I hated my body. I wanted to look like the women in Vogue. I wanted to be skinny. Thin = beautiful, acceptable, desirable, LOVED. Even twenty years ago, this was the case. Why? Was this Vogue’s fault? If there had been a fashion magazine for empowered gorgeous larger women, would I have bought it? Hell, no. I would have still bought into the glossy fantasy fashion world. I wanted the dream. I wanted to look like a Barbie doll. I wasn't remotely interested in reality.
The grand irony is, of course, that it goes the other way too. Once you have achieved your ultimate dream of being skinny, you might be absolutely delighted with your new body shape, but I can tell you truthfully that practically every other woman will hate you for it. Very thin women are constantly reviled and demonised by those larger than them. A couple of years ago, just as I was starting modelling, I was a size zero (U.K. size 4.) I was accused by other models of being unhealthy, a traitor to womankind, ugly (apparently my ribs stuck out), emaciated, and one unenlightened photographic critic even thought I looked dead. Mmm…as you can imagine, this did not make me feel so good about my self-worth at the time. Nor did it make me feel desirable, nor more loved. Thank God for Rich, who took some great piccies and really boosted my self-love quota. The more you model nude, the more you learn to love your body. It does wonders for self esteem, and it's great therapy for those with negative self-image issues. If only every woman would do it.
So I’ve been fat, I’ve been thin, and through my experiences as a model, I have since realised that weight should be irrelevant to photography. It's the personality of the model that counts. I mean, who gives a rat’s ass how fat or thin you are, as long as you’re really, genuinely happy in yourself, and you care passionately about your art? That's what produces great photographs, because your emotions are reflected in your work.
Am I crazy? Is nude photography all about selling a fantasy of “the perfect woman?” Why should it be all about making money and what society considers beautiful? What about personality? What about reality? And most importantly, just HOW do we change things? How do we educate women out of the glossy fantasy, and should we even try?
IMHO, the answer might just begin with the image creators. YOU, the photographers, can help challenge the social stereotypes because you are the ones who make the images. YOU are the ones who create the fantasies. The media follow your example, they look at your work and this influences their opinions and shapes their reactions accordingly. The power is with you, the gifted artists, who know that you can reflect the real beauty of ALL women, regardless of whether they are a size 20 or a size zero.
Society will never break this destructive cycle unless you, the artists, help to make it happen.
It’s up to you. You can start to change the way things are. You just have to want to.
Lynx. Perpetuating the fantasy of the ideal size zero perfection? Or just a talented and passionate art model?


17 Comments:
Whew...can't wait to see the comment chain on this one. I've shot from 90 pounds to over 200. I'm mainly interested in shape and how I can further manipulate it with light and shadow.
I honestly dont think that it should matter what size a woman is they are all beautiful no matter what. I was never comfortable with my body until I went to VERY wonderful photographer for the first time and posed nude (you know who you are). Then I realized how beautiful I really am.
And then there’s the problem of actually finding a plus-plus size model who will pose nude for us (I mean size 20 or above.) Extensive casting calls on my part have met with abject failure.
And where does one look for a woman like this? I've wanted to do this for ages and have never figured out how!
I’m not at all sure why this is even a topic of conversation or debate. I’ve always felt the female form is beautiful – it’s able to provide and bring forward life. In addition however, isn’t it the decision and eye of the artist as to who the model would be? I’m not totally sure a debate on opinion is really possible or should even be considered relevant.
I personally feel the quality and the emotional bond you’re able to create with a piece of art is far more important then the physical proportion of the subject matter.
Besides, different body types will always allow for different features and examples.
If the artist can’t honestly bring is vision to form because lack of inspiration due to the model he is shooting is something of a different subject.
If someone is selecting models based on a weight-biased opinion, then maybe that person needs to take a step back – because IMO they’re getting commercial.
Mike Martello
Brooklyn NY
As you know, I have shot plus size, although not often. And I wrote about it and showed one result, here. That discussion spoke of the extraordinary photographs by Irving Penn made in 1949-50, photographs that he kept to himself for many decades. He of course was a promulgator of the thin-is-beautiful regimen via his work for Vogue and other fashion pages. Yet he was drawn to these "Earthly Bodies" as a photographic challenge.
I won't go so far as to say I'm similarly drawn, but I've worked with more than one more-than-size-4 (U.S.) size model. Those who are generously dimensioned are also often generously enthusiastic in their approach to modeling, and they are a joy to photograph.
I should do another "Earthly Body" series.
I have no issue with shooting "big girls" as long as they have a realistic self-image of themselves.
I've only passed on shooting one lady because I knew her well enough to know that she didn't have a realistic self-image of herself and would not have found the pics to her liking so I passed.
Most big girls are thrilled with good pictures because they really look better than they think they do.
Oh Lin - My head hurts already.
Too bad every photographer isn't like Jan Saudek. But then I guess life would be boring and we wouldn't be having this discourse.
Is it strange as I write this Queen's Fat Bottom Girl comes on the radio.
Yes language matters. Unfortunately to use language we need labels. It's the labels that hurt.
The biggest problem is the "education" we are all bombarded with everyday. You need this look, this car, this house, this lifestyle, or you're a fucking loser. Mass Media. It keeps pounding and has for years. The worst is it won't stop anytime soon. Its warped sense of reality is every where in print, tv and radio programs. If N.Y. Times Square isn't sensory overload I don't know what is. This education starts at an earlier and earlier age. But that kind of education is also prevalent in other things besides sex too. Those young kids in the middle east that chant - we hate Americans - have no clue what an American is or what we are about - what they do know is what they are taught - in their media, schools, and homes - to hate Americans.
"Size-ism and weight bias rules Western culture." Well McDonald's is trying to make this a world culture.
"Weight bias is..." This ignorant rude behavior will never change. It's just a part of life. You just can't change some people no matter how much you try and educate them.
Why do the majority shoot "thin" women? I, like you can't really answer this. I don't shoot nude models so have no experience here. But I surmise it's no different than why do some only shoot landscape, or birds, or water. Some never put a human in their images. I'm sure somewhere in the world is someone that "only" shoots the fat chicks. You just haven't crossed paths yet.
If your fat - they don't like you. If your skinny they don't like you.
It's damned if I do, Damned if I don't syndrome. You are lucky you have Rich to nurture your beauty, whatever shape or size it is contained in.
"Am I crazy? Is nude photography all about selling a fantasy of “the perfect woman?”" Yes. Well "all" I don't think so, A lot or most yes.
Ask the Pretty Girl Shooter. I don't think he'd make a living shooting your top image. Sex sells (thin sex) and that seems to be more ingrained as time goes by. It drives the world economy whether we like it or not.
"What about personality?" Are you asking from a models perspective in dealing with the photographer? Or our perspective as the viewer. How do you represent personality on a two dimensional static image?
"What about reality?" Who's? And just what is reality? I'm sure that question alone is worth a few thousand words here.
"IMHO, the answer might just begin with the image creators" ....Don't hold your breath. As much as you and I and a lot of your fans would like this change to happen. I don't see the media of the world noticing a change in nude photography and how it treats its models body type.
D.L. Wood
P.S. I'm going to have Fluffytek withdrawal. Will be at a trade show in Vegas for the next week and I won't be taking my computer.
I do have to agree with the difficulty in finding a woman who will pose.
I "made the mistake" of wanting to attempt to specialize in plus-size, and have photographed a few women at this point who are larger than life itself.
Far more often than not, I spend my time talking, talking, and talking and attempting to convince them it could be done, only to be shot down in the end with an empty promise or a polite refusal.
Reason being: They hate their bodies.
It's nice when the opportunity arises to try to change things, but learning to get society to cooperate with change ...
Wonderful post, once again!
I think there is probably a distinction between commercial work and artistic work. For commercial work, I can understand that certain stereotype looks for models are required in order for the photographer to market his work to fashion/beauty magazines. Not that I completely agree with that one, but I think that's just the reality, and I wouldn't hold it against the photographer if he zooms in a specific size in order to better market himself in that industry.
When it comes to art photography however.. I pity the photographer who lets the model's size determine his art. If I see a photographer portfolio with weight and size restrictions for art work, I laugh and leave the page. I'm not a size 4 myself, so theoretically, I don't qualify for their art nude work. I don't really care because I know there are plenty other photographers with art in their heart who don't allow for trivial things - like model size- to cloud their artistic vision. A model is SO much more than a hump of flesh, whether it's 90lbs or 160lbs.. It's her creative contribution that can make all the difference. Creativity or passion know no size.
Well, as a photographer who is barely past amateur and trying to enter professional I can speak from some personal experience that I haven't seen mentioned here, and that is that different size people require different skill sets. I personally don't care how big the model is that I'm working with, but right now my level of skill and quality is different for smaller/skinnier models than larger ones. Simply because they require a different style. I've had to learn the hard way that you simply have to shoot people in a different way when they are bigger to show the same beauty. So, for many photographers it might be that it is just much more difficult and the results not are nearly as beautiful. Double chins and folds of skin are much more of a concern with larger models and not always easy to identify when I'm taking the image. Not that I'm stopping or giving up on it, but it is a very different photographic style to develop. Hopefully, some day my larger models will look just as beautiful as my smaller ones in all the photos I take, but for now that is just a thought for the future.
Leonard "Spock" Nemoy agrees with you. He just released a book with plus size models who recreated classical pieces of art and were photographed. You can see an interview on it on a recent Colbert Report.
I don't want to shoot an "overweight" model solely from fear. I don't think I am a good enough artist to portray her beauty adequately, and might, instead, cause a great deal of harm to her self image by unintentionally showing her in a fashion which she would NOT find attractive.
I have shot moderately overweight models (private jobs, not pro or semi-pro models)and it is extremely difficult to meet their hopes (not necessarily expectations) as they, too, are conditioned in standards of beauty by our culture.
hmmmm. What a shame that so many of you wish to photograph a larger woman and can't find them to photograph! I am large sized (and I am not talking a sweet size 20 either, I mean large sized.....) and I'd be willing to be photograhed. email me, we'll talk. quixoticallychaotic@gmail.com
George is right... the expectations are a no-win situation.
My goodness, this did draw the response!
Personally, I think past perceptions of Western world, Caucasian beauty are on the way out in fashion photography. At age 63 I've drawn much more interest than I would have in my 20s. One of the reasons for this is the Dove advertising campaign. Women of all races, sizes, and ages have appeared nude in Dove's Times Square ads.
And the public has liked what they've seen!
We're talking trend. My son (certain a beautiful woman like his mother should have an agent) found an agency interested in working with me. The agency specializes in the unique (and, yes indeed, rare) model who represents non-traditional ages, races, and sizes.
Comments here indicate it is difficult to find women who are size 20 who will model. I have been told over and over and over again that few women over 50 will model either. Well, I've said it before. It takes guts to be "different." The weight of the Twiggy/Vogue model tradition shaped my own perception of beauty when I was growing up.
The tradition turns out to be as lightweight as its models. Apparently, we all want to see real people, and we probably have for the whole time.
I've really enjoyed reading your post, and it is really nice to know that there are photographers out there who want to photograph plus-sized women.
It's gives me a boost of confidence!
I was once turned down by a "professional" photographer because he didn't work with "fatties".
Seriously.
Thanks Ginger!
Needless to say, if there are any plus-plus size models in the UK who are reading this and who are interested in shooting with us, please get in touch :-)
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